Indonesia Summons UK Ambassador Over Separatist Office

Indonesia on Monday summoned the British ambassador in Jakarta to protest after a group supporting the independence of the restive Papua region set up its headquarters in England, the envoy said.

Mark Canning said he was summoned to see Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa, who “conveyed to me in clear terms the strong concern of the Indonesian government at the opening of a ‘Free West Papua’ office in Oxford.”

The “Free West Papua” group last month established the headquarters in the southern English city, and the opening ceremony was attended by the city’s mayor and a member of parliament.

“I explained to the minister that we recognized the sensitivity of this issue for Indonesia,” said Canning in a statement.

“The position of [the] British government on this matter is quite clear. We respect the territorial integrity of Indonesia and do not support calls for Papuan independence. We regard Papua as being part of Indonesia.”

He stressed that the opening of the office “has nothing whatsoever to do with the British government.”

At the weekend, Natalegawa issued a statement saying the office was “clearly incompatible and contrary to the friendly relations that have existed between the two countries.”

The issue of separatism in Indonesia remains deeply sensitive, particularly after the bloody secession of East Timor which gained its independence in 2002.

For decades, ethnic Papuans in the mountainous and sparsely populated region have rejected the area’s special autonomy within Indonesia.

They have demanded a referendum on self-determination for the region’s estimated population of 3.6 million.

The vast area is split into two provinces for administrative purposes, Papua and West Papua, but some — such as the group which set up the office in Oxford — refer to the whole region as West Papua.

Indonesia has strict treason laws and courts have handed down stiff penalties from 20 years’ jail to life for people caught with separatist symbols such as the Papuan flag.

Around 130 people are currently imprisoned in Indonesia for peacefully promoting separatism, most of them from Papua or the eastern Maluku islands, according to Human Rights Watch.

Agence France-Presse

  • New Disqus

    just wandering to jakarta globe.. why you quoted foreign news agency. Where is your journalist? We want your news with local angle and your editorial angle or perhap quoting foreign media is your editorial judgement?

    • 22roles

      All the time, bias to the core editor in JG

      • 22rangerovers

        all the time racist to the core 22

  • Wong Edan

    Lots of publicity for the OPM, thanks to Indonesia’s diplomatic immaturity. Every little helps in the fight against this vicious occupation…

    • himatey

      Look how well East Timorese independence is going, they are so much better off now aren’t they ? Don’t forget independent PNG – prosperous, safe, a model country (em ya wantok bilong yu) . A developing country needs a firm hand, rather suffer a few abuses than living in a non-country.

      • rustynail

        ‘they are so much better off now aren’t they” Well actually they are much better and only the truly ignorant would suggest otherwise. For a start 20% of the population has not “disappeared” over the past decade. Secondly, that horrid and evil rape camp on Aturo Island has gone (ask any senior uniformed ex timor vet about that and watch them splutter). Lastly the state sanctioned massing kidnappings of children for re-education has stopped. So yea much better off thanks. Why don’t you put it to a vote and ethnic Papuans what they want?

        • devine

          rustynail…100% correct… but people like himatey will never comprehend the value of freedeom…

      • 22roles

        PNG???? Sorry mate , totally disagree…have been there ,involved deeply with local market, done that and way off from your flowery views.

        • himatey

          Guess sarcasm doesn’t translate well on the internet.

          • 22roles

            No it ain’t, specially coming up from a country either in recession or already bankrupt state ..who wants to listen after all when what being preached ain’t the same as what being done..Asange sounds familiar to you?

        • OOOPS

          so now you are a market trader…

          jeez will the scope of work this person of dubious parentage never cease

          Banker, travel agent, satpam, civil servant, travelling salesmen and now market trader ….

        • OOOPS

          so now you are a market trader…

          jeez will the scope of work this person of dubious parentage never cease

          Banker, travel agent, satpam, civil servant, travelling salesmen and now market trader ….

  • MikeOfAston

    Indonesia trying to impose its brand of democracy on a country that has practised real democracy hundreds of years before Indonesia was even born ?

    • devine

      We will never get that right…

    • 22roles

      On contrary , Can’t say they are at all …human right abuses and safe passage for Asange is no where near what this pretender country preaches..lets buy British last, let see scots would walk away soon.

  • 22roles

    Can Indonesia start giving last option to any British work and contractors, time is right to do this…US,china has done it, time to make it here at home.start to reexport any expats coming from UK would be first step into the right direction.

    • OOOPS

      UK exports 2012 $418,000,000 – $7500 per capita
      Indo exports 2012 $183,00,000 – $700 per capita

      yawnnnnnnn

      • 22roles

        And UK is in recession , if not already bankrupt state…lol.

        • 22R

          UK exports 1.2 million cars

          Indo 1… a used Range Rover

          UK will bounce back 22 – will take a few years but it will

          • 22roles

            I am sure it will but in the mean time, get a brand new begging bowl, will u?

  • rustynail

    Why didn’t the Ambassador show some integrity and inform the horrid little man that instead of complaining to the UK, its about time Indonesia starting acting like civilised nation in Papua. Perhaps he could start by asking how much longer state sanctioned mass kidnappings of Papua children to attend muslim boarding schools in Jakarta and forced conversion is going to continue.

    • 22roles

      Good point, also add more, when can indonesia give British last to get a job or contract from here? Maybe to start reexporting experts from the country would be a good move as well.

  • Moog2000

    ‘Indonesia has strict treason laws and courts have handed down stiff
    penalties from 20 years’ jail to life for people caught with separatist
    symbols such as the Papuan flag.’

    Now why is it not considered treason to murder, beat, bomb, and attack other Indonesians who have different beliefs from you? Why is it not treason to use force and intimidation in an attempt to tear down the state and replace it with a muslim dictatorship run by goons in white skull-caps? Why is not treason to defy the rulings of the supreme court and openly flout the laws of the nation?

    • TalkingEid

      It’s only treason in Papua Moog – not in Aceh, obviously.

  • pakpeter

    I agree with 22, when the Scots have their referendum to leave the UK, Papua can have a referendum to leave Indonesia.

    • KampungHighlander

      Well the Scots are having their referendum on September 18th 2014. Are you proposing the Papuan’s hold theirs on the same date?

      • devine

        :)

      • http://somewhere.com/ FMN

        I think your math skill needs polishing

    • 22roles

      Only after few hundred years pak, then we might have that referendum as in Scotland..

  • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

    This West Papua region still belongs constituently to Indonesia’s sovereignty, Indonesian’s government actions there is fully justified. Also, countries like China or Japan or even Malaysia work really hard to maintain their sovereignty over tiny islands, why would people even think that Indonesia will ever let go Papua with its abundant resources and mineral deposits. Look what happen to East Timor?

    • devine

      Yes, we see what happened in East Timor; the voted for freedom! And while things are still difficult there I am sure that the would NEVER vote to return to us… wonder why?

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Why would they? They wouldn’t want to be deemed as the failed one by requesting to rejoin Indonesia after all these years.

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

          LOL, it only begs the question why ET asked for independence to begin with nearly 14 years ago–too much bloodshed. If ET were to join another country, I pray it won`t be Indonesia.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            Well you said that ET wouldn’t rejoin b/c they would lose face. I was saying, if ET returned to Indonesia, that’d be equivalent to a divorced woman returning to her violently abusive ex-husband. That’d be worse than losing face.

            It’s such a shame when a region starts a separatist movement. Sometimes though, I believe that maybe an “amicable divorce” should be seriously considered as a solution. That, or the gov’t should start treating the Papuans like actual human beings.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            Well you said that ET wouldn’t rejoin b/c they would lose face. I was saying, if ET returned to Indonesia, that’d be equivalent to a divorced woman returning to her violently abusive ex-husband. That’d be worse than losing face.

            It’s such a shame when a region starts a separatist movement. Sometimes though, I believe that maybe an “amicable divorce” should be seriously considered as a solution. That, or the gov’t should start treating the Papuans like actual human beings.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            Well you said that ET wouldn’t rejoin b/c they would lose face. I was saying, if ET returned to Indonesia, that’d be equivalent to a divorced woman returning to her violently abusive ex-husband. That’d be worse than losing face.

            It’s such a shame when a region starts a separatist movement. Sometimes though, I believe that maybe an “amicable divorce” should be seriously considered as a solution. That, or the gov’t should start treating the Papuans like actual human beings.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            Well you said that ET wouldn’t rejoin b/c they would lose face. I was saying, if ET returned to Indonesia, that’d be equivalent to a divorced woman returning to her violently abusive ex-husband. That’d be worse than losing face.

            It’s such a shame when a region starts a separatist movement. Sometimes though, I believe that maybe an “amicable divorce” should be seriously considered as a solution. That, or the gov’t should start treating the Papuans like actual human beings.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            Yes I got your point about the divorce thing. However, in a very ethically diverse country like Indonesia, if one such separatists movement get away, all others will try to get away as well. And really as Indonesian I do not want that. And yes I believe Indonesian government should exercise their role better there. If such thing as Amicable separation which will always solve every issue then we would’ve been living in utopia by now. Perhaps giving Papua a more autonomy freedom could be a far more possible solutions in near future.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            Let me quote you: “If such thing as Amicable separation which will ALWAYS solve every issue then we would’ve been living in utopia by now.” (I put the caps on “always” here).

            On the other hand, what I actually said was, “Sometimes though, I believe that maybe an ‘amicable divorce’ should be seriously considered as a solution.” Did you notice that I used the word “sometimes” there? When did I say the solution always has to be separation 100% of the time LOL?

            We have to look at WHY a region wants to separate to begin with. It can be valid or petty reasons. If the reasons are valid, it’s a wake-up call for the central gov’t. If the central gov’t doesn’t treat the West Papuans better in the long run, it’ll make separation more tempting, you know? Give the abused, unhappy wife a reason to stay and then walk the talk. That’s it. Now we’ll wait and see.

          • TalkingEid

            What you are arguing, Fransisko Lojaya, is that in some way 2 wrongs make a right. Are you trying to say that it’s ok for Indonesia to have a colony in Papua, and treat its indigenous people appallingly, because other counties did the same in the past?
            Try re-reading all of your previous posts, but substituting the word “Holland’ for “Indonesia”, and the word “Indonesia” for “Papua”. It makes just as much sense as your jingoistic tub thumping.

          • TalkingEid

            What you are arguing, Fransisko Lojaya, is that in some way 2 wrongs make a right. Are you trying to say that it’s ok for Indonesia to have a colony in Papua, and treat its indigenous people appallingly, because other counties did the same in the past?
            Try re-reading all of your previous posts, but substituting the word “Holland’ for “Indonesia”, and the word “Indonesia” for “Papua”. It makes just as much sense as your jingoistic tub thumping.

          • TalkingEid

            What you are arguing, Fransisko Lojaya, is that in some way 2 wrongs make a right. Are you trying to say that it’s ok for Indonesia to have a colony in Papua, and treat its indigenous people appallingly, because other counties did the same in the past?
            Try re-reading all of your previous posts, but substituting the word “Holland’ for “Indonesia”, and the word “Indonesia” for “Papua”. It makes just as much sense as your jingoistic tub thumping.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            We did not treat them as a colony. Papua is one of the 34 provinces of indonesia and she has equal autonomic rules as the other provinces. You might as well say that Indonesia should be balkanized because some group of native-indigenous people dislike the way they are governed therefore each one of them deserve an independent state, is it what you are trying to say? Also i find it funny that you compare a separatis movement with a colonial struggle.

          • TalkingEid

            ……and Ireland, to take one example, was part of the United Kingdom until 1922. You think it should remain so? By your logic, (if I can call it that) no colony should ever be allowed its independence.
            I repeat, your argument seems to be – other countries did bad things in the past, so It is OK for Indonesia to copy those ideas now.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            ….and by your logic, every single separatists should be given independence? I don’t mention anything about copying, but at this point I don’t think giving Papua their independence is the right thing to do, for both sides. There will be civil unrest in Papua soon as they become a separate state, that’s quite inevitable (just like what happen to ET). I don’t see them capable of governing such a rough region independently, at least for now. In the other hand, Indonesian government will soon be labeled as weak, the public opinion of the government would plummet significantly (even worse than now) and other separatists would gradually start appearing from various places throughout the region. Such situation would be very chaotic. In reality freedoms don’t always solve the problem…

          • TalkingEid

            “don’t think giving Papua their independence is the right thing to do,
            for both sides. There will be civil unrest in Papua soon as they become a
            separate state, that’s quite inevitable (just like what happen to ET).”
            I can just imagine someone a few years ago saying “don’t think giving Indonesia their independence is the right thing to do,
            for both sides. There will be civil unrest in Indonesia soon”.

            Well obviously, the poor primitives are quite incapable of ruling themselves right?

          • JohnEnglish

            Mate…they have every reason to be pissed. Indonesia invaded West Papua in 1961′ up until then they. were stuck with the Dutch. So I think that throws your argument to the dogs.

          • FMN

            What we mean ‘other countries did bad things in the past’, so own up to your past atrocities before opening your mouth

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            I’m arguing from the point of view of Indonesia as a state. No countries in this world would want to lose parts of their territory, in any case. The independence of East Timor had been viewed as major failure here and I believe majority of Indonesians wouldn’t want such case to happen again in near future.

            Btw no one will expect them to rejoin Indonesia, so don’t be too bothered.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

          • Andi Bugis

            Do not need to pray, mate! ET would be another state of AU. ET would not go back to PT because PT is already bancrupt.

  • KampungHighlander

    Rather Interesting how the UK and Indonesia react differently to moves to succeed from their respective countries. Scotland will be holding a vote on Independence from the UK on September 18th 2014. Meanwhile those that call peacefully for the people of West Papua to be able to decide their own future are jailed. Rather than lecturing the UK the Indonesian government would do better to learn from how more mature democracies handle ethnic minorities calls for self determination.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

      • Phantom

        “And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities.”
        Are you just chirping or do you have something substantial, like stats and analysis from credible sources, to back this up?

      • Phantom

        “And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities.”
        Are you just chirping or do you have something substantial, like stats and analysis from credible sources, to back this up?

        • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

          I live in Australia.. Do you want me to eleborate what is White Australian Policy and The Lost Generation period?

          • Phantom

            Do I want you to tell me about the White Australian Policy and The Lost Generation Period? Dude, I never say no to free history lessons.

            I actually didn’t say that Australians have shown themselves throughout history to be morally superior/innocent. Even monkeys know that generally speaking, the white European governments of the past were awesome at ruining the indigenous population they conquered. Just ask the

            Native Americans and the entire Africa *sarcasm*.

            I just question the basis for saying “Oh, this is a lot worse.”

            First step: define “a lot worse” and why yours is the only valid one. B/c of the amount of people abused/killed? The length of time? How much pain, hurt, and suffering felt by the survivors or the loved ones of the victims? Yeah, let’s put that on a scale. Brilliant. What the heck? “Thou dost protest too much. Your gov’t is actually pretty good. I suffer so much more than you b/c my gov’t did this and this to me for this period of time,” “Err..no, my gov’t actually did such and such, I suffer so much more for much longer. Your gov’t is actually not that bad. You’re whiny.” Is it just me or is this dumb?

            Second step: compare notes with:
            - The Anti-Chinese legislations + those targeted in May ’98 riots-esp the rape victims, and those victimized in the 1965-1966 killings
            - Minority Muslim sects (those Ahmadiyyahs being told to “just disappear”)
            -Alexander Aan and the implications of his persecution for the rest of the atheists in Indonesia. I’m all for civility, but blasphemy law is an insult to the human intelligence. And I’m not even an atheist.
            - Christians denied church permits for hilariously bogus reasons or they have their places of worship bombed at times
            -Papuans murdered by the Indonesian military since the 1960′s
            -All those massacres in East Timor when it was still w/ Indonesia

            Pots should stop calling the kettles black and vice versa, Australians or Indonesians, I don’t care.

          • Phantom

            Hey Lojaya, does this ring a bell: “I love everything about Australia since the very first day I arrived in this country.” How cute. You should’ve said “I love everything about Australia except for the Aboriginals genocide bit.” You’re smart and you’ll go places, for sure. Still, knowing that you’re still a kid explains a lot of what you said in this comment section. You should be flattered I stalked you ;-)

          • Fransisko Lojaya

            It’s very sad if you look down on my comments simply because I am prolly a lot younger than you, but then again I’m a bit surprised knowing you had to stalk me first before coming out with a reply.

          • Phantom

            It’s very sad, eh? Cue the violin

            Finished with the violin?

            Now, don’t get me wrong, kid, you’re impressive for someone your age. A lot of kids (not all, but many) your age are wasting their time being, well, wasted, and being dumb. Like I said, you’d go places because you’re exceptionally intelligent. I’m both impressed and disappointed at a lot of the things that you’ve said to many commentators in this section.

            Judging by a lot of your comments, you talk like you have it all figured out (I didn’t say that you claimed to have it all figured out, I just think you act that way). I was once your age, people at that age don’t have it all figured out, though they think they’re awesome. Come back in another 5, 10 years look at all of the stuffs you said here and you may not believe the things that you said.

        • Fanelli

          “re you just chirping or do you have something substantial, like stats and analysis from credible sources, to back this up?”

          I’m far from an Indonesian apologist, but if you can’t see this then I don’t know if you’re honestly engaged here. Australians exterminated an entire race of people… to actual extinction (Tazmanians) through active genocide… they hunted them like animals… and they systematically destroyed aboriginal culture elsewhere and killed aboriginals wholesale.

          Indonesia is handling Papuans a bit better than Australia handled Aboriginals, I’m sorry to say. That’s not really saying much.

          It’s actually true that Australia and the US committed awful genocidal acts and mostly destroyed the aboriginal cultures and civilizations. That was also a long time ago in a period of history when things were generally a lot nastier. After WWII the world developed a global consensus and things changed. What Indonesians are doing in Papua is waaaay better than even the typical colonial practices 150+ years ago, but it’s just frowned upon now, in modern times, which is why they’re getting flak for it.

          • Phantom

            I pushed Lojaya and he eventually said he lived in Australia and all of us here can tell he is a minority in that country. So if Australia is treating minorities horribly (notice the plural form of the word “minority” that he used-though I realized he mentioned the Aboriginals the 1st time) then why does he, as a minority, live there? Kampung Highlander said that Indonesia should learn from mature democracies. Then Lojaya mentioned the Australians’ dark past. Isn’t it possible for Indonesia to learn from mature democracies, so it doesn’t repeat their past transgressions? Because I doubt Highlander meant that Indonesia had to learn from mature democracies by copying the atrocities they inflicted on the subdued indigenous people. We all try to learn from the past, not to relive the past mistakes.

            Indonesia may not hunt down the Papuans the way the Australians of the past hunted down the Aboriginals…or the way the Hutus massacred the Tutsis like animals in 94, or like the Nazi Germany treated the Jews. What a consolation for the Papuans…they can start singing Kumbaya with the Indonesian central government then *sarcasm.* As I said to Lojaya also in another convo w/ him in this thread, if Indonesia doesn’t resolve the armed conflicts, it can end up like the barbaric British of the past.

      • Phantom

        “And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities.”
        Are you just chirping or do you have something substantial, like stats and analysis from credible sources, to back this up?

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      It took the Scots more than 300 years to be granted a referendum. And if every separatist groups should be allowed referendums and ‘decide their own future’ as you argued above, regions such as South Ossetia or Kosovo or Kurdistan would’ve been fully independent now. However in reality It just does not work like that. Take Australia as example, if the native indigenous Australian cry for a separate independent state, do you really think they are going to put up a referendum? And Australia as a nation had done a lot worse than Indonesia in term of handling minorities. It isn’t that simple to be having a ‘vote on independence’, sometimes having freedoms isn’t always the answer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      Although yes I believe Indonesian government should have done better in exercising their role in Papua! No need to jail people who are peacefully expressing their opinions.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      Although yes I believe Indonesian government should have done better in exercising their role in Papua! No need to jail people who are peacefully expressing their opinions.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      Although yes I believe Indonesian government should have done better in exercising their role in Papua! No need to jail people who are peacefully expressing their opinions.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      Although yes I believe Indonesian government should have done better in exercising their role in Papua! No need to jail people who are peacefully expressing their opinions.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      Although yes I believe Indonesian government should have done better in exercising their role in Papua! No need to jail people who are peacefully expressing their opinions.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      Although yes I believe Indonesian government should have done better in exercising their role in Papua! No need to jail people who are peacefully expressing their opinions.

  • mauriceg

    [edited] On topic, Indonesia is trying to dictate who opens what offices in the UK. What the trolls don’t understand is the vast gulf that separates the pathetic so-called ‘democratic’ countries like Indonesia, where human rights abuses and atrocities, corruption, state-sanctioned persecutions and terrorism are the daily fare, with mature democracies where the Constitutions are respected and honoured.
    Britain does not have to kow-tow to nutter states like Indonesia, and the Islamist drones and trolls here better get used to the idea.

    • devine

      Right, that is why Britan is and is called a developed country and a democratic at that and why we have to live with the fact and the stigma of a banana republic… and if things go on as now FOREVER! Worse, I worry we will proceed from normal banana republic to an Islamic banana republic… lost for a long long long time….

      • TalkingEid

        and probably with no bananas, devine, due to utterly incompetent state micro-management of the agricultural sector. But it’s ok – the MUI will declare bananas haram soon anyway.

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

          • JohnEnglish

            Don’t worry Devine, the military will step in when it gets really bad. Why do you think they bought all those tanks?

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

        • devine

          Hahaha… maybe yes. But i dont worry about that…we have lots of bananas in my backyard and if necessary will fight for them… but then I am lucky too because not many MUI influence (NON actually) here were we live :)

      • TalkingEid

        and probably with no bananas, devine, due to utterly incompetent state micro-management of the agricultural sector. But it’s ok – the MUI will declare bananas haram soon anyway.

      • TalkingEid

        and probably with no bananas, devine, due to utterly incompetent state micro-management of the agricultural sector. But it’s ok – the MUI will declare bananas haram soon anyway.

      • TalkingEid

        and probably with no bananas, devine, due to utterly incompetent state micro-management of the agricultural sector. But it’s ok – the MUI will declare bananas haram soon anyway.

      • TalkingEid

        and probably with no bananas, devine, due to utterly incompetent state micro-management of the agricultural sector. But it’s ok – the MUI will declare bananas haram soon anyway.

      • TalkingEid

        and probably with no bananas, devine, due to utterly incompetent state micro-management of the agricultural sector. But it’s ok – the MUI will declare bananas haram soon anyway.

      • TalkingEid

        and probably with no bananas, devine, due to utterly incompetent state micro-management of the agricultural sector. But it’s ok – the MUI will declare bananas haram soon anyway.

      • TalkingEid

        and probably with no bananas, devine, due to utterly incompetent state micro-management of the agricultural sector. But it’s ok – the MUI will declare bananas haram soon anyway.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      democracy doesn’t guarantee freedoms

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

        Exactly, just like Indonesia

        • Andi Bugis

          As long as your needs are satisfied by the state, you do not need democracy. Ask Singaporeans and Bruneians! They seem to be happy with their current ‘democracy’.

        • Andi Bugis

          As long as your needs are satisfied by the state, you do not need democracy. Ask Singaporeans and Bruneians! They seem to be happy with their current ‘democracy’.

        • Andi Bugis

          As long as your needs are satisfied by the state, you do not need democracy. Ask Singaporeans and Bruneians! They seem to be happy with their current ‘democracy’.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            Yes! Even in China, where freedom is almost non-existent, but their government is functioning really well as a state isn’t it..

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            Beautiful human rights records too, eh?! Like Andi said, some non-democratic countries are doing well, but seriously, don’t use China as an example. I have a friend from mainland China, born and bred there, who are now applying for a citizenship in a developed western country I shall not name. Her reasons? She wants better freedom and respect for the human dignity. This is not to say that western countries have perfect human rights record and unbridled freedom. I’m talking about degrees of respect for the human life and freedom.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            This ‘Western Developed Countries’ you are talking about have been there for more than 100 years. All I’m trying to say is Indonesia with all her third world problems is not going anywhere if we thoroughly follow this so called Western Democracy. China will not be a growing superpower if they were to follow this western democracy thing. I do not say it is wrong, it just does not work with certain countries. But this is just my opinion, you don’t have to agree.

          • Roland

            Fransisko – you wrote “‘…Western Developed Countries’ …..have been there for more than 100 years”.
            You might not be aware that Western Europe has seen two massive wars in the last 100 years – two wars which basically left Europe destroyed and stripped of its factories and machinery.
            Same as in Indonesia the new era began after 1945. Also politically.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            In case you misunderstood what I posted, I was talking about the idea of liberty, freedoms, and democracy were already developed there throughout the Western Countries for more than 100-200 years. I’m quite a history nerd so I could follow up your statement above with a prob a bit long response. Polish-Lithuanians Commonwealth was already there in the 16th century, the US gained their Independence in the late 18th century, French Revolution also took place in the early 19th century and soon followed up by series of revolutions across Europe in the 1840s. By the end of 19th century most states in the West were either Constitutional Monarchs or Republic. In the same time Indonesia were still in their medieval era, up until the Dutch came, and politically Indonesia grew stagnant from there. We finally got rid of Dutch in 1940s and started from there, and there is a massive gap there. It took these Western Countries hundreds years to achieve the idea of democracy and freedoms policy that they are proudly having now, why would some people expect Indonesia to be in the same level with them, we barely pass 70 years mark. Please don’t consider Indonesia and these developed countries started from the same line…

          • TalkingEid

            Well how about Ireland as a comparison then Fransisko? Independent since the 1920′s. Any sign of Indonesia reaching the same levels that Ireland reached 30 years ago? Nope, I thought not. “Our colonial past’ is a very convenient excuse in our nation.

          • Fransisko Lojaya

            Mm well I’m pretty sure democracy in Ireland was way more developed already. They are one of the world’s largest empire at that moment, it’s United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland since Act of Union in 1801. They developed their democracy as far back as 1850s, and their House of Parliament was established even earlier. In the meantime Indonesia was just another Dutch colonial post….. So yeah it’s pretty obvious Indonesia won’t catch up Ireland anytime soon. They don’t have a 200,000,000+ population and 300 different native ethnic groups living in their state anyway, so I bet it’s slightly easier there. Mm I suggest you get a better example for your comparison next time.

          • TalkingEid

            Why not Ireland? It was a colony of England for almost a thousand years. Its puppet parliament was nothing more than a talking shop, dominated by the Anglo Irish aristocracy. Its people were starved and brutalised. Yet within less than 50 years of independence we see a thriving democracy, with one of the highest GDPs per capita in the world.

            Maybe the answer lies a little too close to home Fransisko – our own culture is what holds us back, not the ‘sins’ of some long-gone colonial power.

          • http://somewhere.com/ FMN

            TalkingEid, apologizing for past colonial power again?

            You seem to have lots of ideas, which I think better heard and tested if you’re elected to some sort of position in the Indonesian’s legislative body, central or provincial. What are you waiting for then?

          • TalkingEid

            You keep calling me an apologist FMN. I must be stupid, because I can’t see in any of my postings any apology for the actions of colonial powers, be they British, Dutch, American or Indonesian. Please copy and paste whichever statement I made that supports such oppression and exploitation.

          • Ken Westmoreland

            You do, however, have the advantage of having greater exposure to information and education than people in 19th century Europe did, which allows you to ‘leapfrog’ or skip generations. That doesn’t mean that Indonesia should slavishly copy Western countries (it should retain capital punishment, for example) just that historical relativism has its limits.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            “This ‘Western Developed Countries’ you are talking about have been there for more than 100 years.”
            “I do not say it is wrong, it just does not work with certain countries.” Umm..so which is it? That Indonesia hasn’t had enough time to catch up, or because democracy may not work with the Indonesian system? Because if Indonesia needs more time then western democracy MAY actually work in the long run, right?

            “China will not be a growing superpower if they were to follow this western democracy thing.” Please point out where in my previous post I attacked China’s superpower status. My criticism at China was directed at their human rights record and freedom suppression. You answered that with China being a superpower, which is true, but kind of irrelevant to the point I made, don’t you think, Mr. Lojaya?

            I personally prefer a well-managed & prosperous country that upholds the universal human rights, than a superpower one. Yes, it’s not a zero-sum game, but I don’t lose sleep because my country is not a superpower, because the US doesn’t borrow from my country, because my country’s intelligence can’t hack into the Pentagon, or because my country can’t veto UN decisions. A superpower gov’t that can’t take good care of its own people is a turn-off for me, personally. Like, kudos for all their achievements in the Olympics, their mighty military, their brainpower, etc, but seriously that’s still not good enough.

            According to the Legatum Prosperity Index, the top 3 countries with the world’s happiest people live in: 1)Norway, 2)Denmark, and 3)Sweden. They rank 6th, 7th, and 5th respectively in personal freedom index. Canada ranks 1st in personal freedom and 6th in overall happiness. None of them are superpower nations. The non-western countries in the top 20 list of the happiness index are Taiwan, Singapore, and a tiny part of China called Hong Kong…that used to be ruled by the British (China’s happiness is ranked 55th). China’s HDI is 101 (medium). MAYBE not bad, but still PLENTY LOTSSS to be desired from a superpower country. LOL.

            With regards to Indonesia & Papua, the issues of freedom and human rights are more relevant to discuss rather than superpower status. West Papua & Indonesia don’t butt heads over the superpower status. The West Papuans want freedom and if Indonesia wants their loyalty, treat them like actual human beings. If we look @ Pancasila, we can see that “Persatuan Indonesia” is threatened because “Kemanusiaan yang Adil & Beradab” and “Keadilan Sosial Bagi SELURUH (funny how it doesn’t say “sebagian”) Rakyat Indonesia” are compromised.

            As I conveyed also to Andi Bugis, if western democracy is not the right model, then the gov’t needs to first clean up its acts: all the abhorrent human rights violations, corruptions, and the appalling crime rate. Once again, I’m not saying that western developed countries are perfect, but they’re much better in this respect. The prosperous but “controlling” nations are still relatively rare. While correlation is not causation, it’s no accident that western democracies tend to be developed. You can’t blame people when they want the more successful model, right?

            Someone once told me that the best political system is benevolent dictatorship. I’m not saying that you, Frans, are proposing such system, but if Indonesia tightens its freedom, the gov’t needs to be “benevolent.” Until the gov’t can be “benevolent,” I personally don’t believe it has any rights to “restrict freedom and democracy,” with the poor excuse that Brunei, Singapore, and China are role models. But, of course, it’s just my opinion, you don’t have to agree with me ;-).

          • Fransisko Lojaya

            Wow that’s one hell of response ^_^

            There’s quite a lot of good points there, but yeah people have varied opinions about what makes a good nation. I would really love to see Indonesia become as prosperous as the scandinavians in term of human rights, people’s welfares and all those stuff. However we’ll have to wait….. it’s going to be a very long journey. 200,000,000+ populations isn’t an easy thing to be governed and we only just passed 68th mark. These countries you were talking about have been developing your ideas of democracy for centuries :)
            And, in the mean time if we are going to keep arguing about human rights and freedom and stuff in Papua it will be a never ending conflict.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            Beautiful human rights records too, eh?! Like Andi said, some non-democratic countries are doing well, but seriously, don’t use China as an example. I have a friend from mainland China, born and bred there, who are now applying for a citizenship in a developed western country I shall not name. Her reasons? She wants better freedom and respect for the human dignity. This is not to say that western countries have perfect human rights record and unbridled freedom. I’m talking about degrees of respect for the human life and freedom.

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            Yes! Even in China, where freedom is almost non-existent, but their government is functioning really well as a state isn’t it..

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            Yes! Even in China, where freedom is almost non-existent, but their government is functioning really well as a state isn’t it..

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            Yes! Even in China, where freedom is almost non-existent, but their government is functioning really well as a state isn’t it..

          • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

            Yes! Even in China, where freedom is almost non-existent, but their government is functioning really well as a state isn’t it..

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            If Indonesia’s governance style is “revised” to be like Singapore or Brunei, it has a long way to go. For one, improve the human rights record and clean out the corruption. When Indonesia can clean itself up, then perhaps the people may be fine with it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            If Indonesia’s governance style is “revised” to be like Singapore or Brunei, it has a long way to go. For one, improve the human rights record and clean out the corruption. When Indonesia can clean itself up, then perhaps the people may be fine with it.

          • Andi Bugis

            But please give Indonesia and other developing countries more time to make their households in order. You cannot simply use the current western standards to judge them. If Human Right Watch, Amnesty International and Transparency International etc were already present in 16th century, they would have published the same devastating reports of the state of humanity in France, Britain, Spain and Portugal oversee territories.

          • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

            I never said Indonesia must be developed NOW, did I? In my previous comment that you replied to, I actually used Singapore & Brunei as the examples, not the western countries. Why? Because YOU, Andi, brought up those countries as examples yourself, not me,LOL. I understand Indonesia needs more time, which is why I said, “When Indonesia can clean itself up, then perhaps the people may be fine with it,”—> this implies a possible future state. I spoke about the western countries when I talked to Fransisko and that was primarily to counter Fransisko’s irrelevant pt about China’s superpower status. In spite of it all, yes, Indonesia has come a long way since the colonial times and the Soeharto era.

            That being said, let me ask you the same question I asked Fransisko, what’s the real crux of your argument, Andi? That Indonesia needs more time to sort itself out, or that a non-democratic political system may suit the ppl & the gov’t better? Because if Indo needs more time, then western democracy MAY still work.

            You made a fair pt about Singapore & Brunei. I seriously mean that. As I said to Fransisko as well, I can’t blame ppl for wanting democracy, because it’s the system that most developed countries have. Singapore & Brunei are still rare success stories of “control freak” governments so far. Once again, this is not say Indonesia must be like the western countries NOW/SOON, but there are reasons why democracy is the preferred system.

          • TalkingEid

            Yes they would Andi – is that your argument? Other colonial powers acted badly, centuries ago, so it’s ok for Java to do the same now?

          • Andi Bugis

            Don’t get me wrong. Please read my comments early. They need some time to change. The problem here is that you expect them to change overnight!!!

          • Phantom

            And the West Papuans have their needs satisfied by the state? How funny that it has a separatist movement.

          • Andi Bugis

            Even in the area where people are most developed, the separatist sentiment never dies. Catalonia and Basq are always pursuing a separate state out of the democratic Spain. The same you could say to Corsica vs France. My basic argument is that democracy does not guarantee unity. For developing countries struggling to keep their economic development and territorial integrity hand in hand, democracy can easily mean desintegration! The word of Papua as a separate entity surfaced just during the round table conference 1949 in The Hague between the Dutch colonialists and Indonesian nationalists. Dutch kept Papua out of the newly formed United States of Indonesia to harbor the many Dutch Indies citizens that were not willing to migrate to cold Netherlands. Dutch was angry to Soekarno and instead of transfering the territory to Indonesia as was initially agreed in the 1949 conference, Dutch made a Papuan flag Morning Star, a national anthem Tanahku Papua (in Indonesian/Malay language), Papuan corps, Papuan parliament but should follow all orders from The Hague. So, you can see that West Papua and other islands in Nusantara (except Eastern part of Timor and Northern Borneo) are one entity sharing the same history under one colonial master ruled from Batavia/jakarta.

          • Phantom

            I currently live in Canada where there’s a legit Quebec separatist party in the parliament. Things got violent too in Cda b/w the Anglo government & the French Canadians in the past. Both sides are plenty more civilized today, but some French Canadians still express separatist sentiments (and hence, that separatist party in the parliament), but at least the federal government have the Quebec people’s need provided that sometimes I feel those Quebec separatists really protest too much.

            The free history lesson you generously gave actually made me somewhat sympathize with the OPM, dude. It also doesn’t tell me that Indonesia satisfies the needs of the Papuans, at least not enough to restrict the freedom of OPM in this manner. Right now, it’s Indonesia that makes the separation option more tempting for the Papuans, although perhaps W Papua can’t realistically support itself.

          • TalkingEid

            “So, you can see that West Papua and other islands in Nusantara (except
            Eastern part of Timor and Northern Borneo) are one entity sharing the
            same history under one colonial master ruled from Batavia/jakarta.”- I see you now agree with me Andi that Java is now the colonial master of its empire.

          • Valkyrie1604

            Here’s latest about freedom of press in Singapore……gone down! If I am not wrong, Singapore is listed above 130+. Indonesia? Well, just a little bit better than the little red dot.

            A Singaprean, not too happy with it.

            Btw, you DON’T know Singapore.

          • Phantom

            Valkyrie, don’t bother with Bugis. The genius is a hypocrite. All the talk about how dope non-democratic states are, yet he told another commentator he lived in Europe (i.e., he likely lives in a free, democratic country). He should try living in Singapore or Brunei if he like em so much.

        • Andi Bugis

          As long as your needs are satisfied by the state, you do not need democracy. Ask Singaporeans and Bruneians! They seem to be happy with their current ‘democracy’.

        • Andi Bugis

          As long as your needs are satisfied by the state, you do not need democracy. Ask Singaporeans and Bruneians! They seem to be happy with their current ‘democracy’.

        • Andi Bugis

          As long as your needs are satisfied by the state, you do not need democracy. Ask Singaporeans and Bruneians! They seem to be happy with their current ‘democracy’.

      • DrDez

        certainly true in Indonesia

      • DrDez

        certainly true in Indonesia

      • DrDez

        certainly true in Indonesia

      • DrDez

        certainly true in Indonesia

      • MadWorld

        1998, Indonesia was not an ideal candidate for democracy.
        Because°) it’s economy is based on natural resources & Indonesia have no strong political institution ( all based on Cronies & corruption).
        °) It attempted to democratize at a low level of per capita income ,2650$ in1998 ( Singapore >26.000$)
        But radical political reform demanded by The USA & IMF, means the end of Suharto, which actually achieved order, secularism, & economic stability. The new political system, also democratize islamic fundamentalism.
        In the last 50 years almost all success story in the developing world has taken place under “liberal” authoritarian government. (Taiwan, S’pore, South Korea, China ) All with strong law enforcement institution.Do not try to incite segregation, or even lecturing hatred in those above named countries. So indeed democracy does not guarantee freedom.

        • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

          True !

        • TalkingEid

          That would depend what you mean by ‘freedom’ MadWorld. If you mean democracy does not guarantee political freedom, you have clearly misunderstood the word ‘democracy’.

          • GypsyMacaque

            Suppose base on democratic election , those elected are racist, fascist, e.g. Hitler & Hamas are democratically elected .
            Islamic theocratic government , such as Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen. To the west democracy means ,liberalism, marked by free & fair election. Actually this liberal democracy is limited by the rule of law. There are separation of judiciary, religion, the military,in the USA, the Security & Exchange Commission, the FBI, are appointed on longer term & not coincided with the electoral cycle. Even freedom of speech has it limitation, you just can not freely incite hatred, violence or segregation in a speech.The politic should be compatible with democracy.This is called Constitutional Democracy, just to prevent that the elected head of state becomes a dictator.
            Because democratizing of fundamentalism is the dark side of liberal democracy.

      • TalkingEid

        So what system gives a better guarantee of freedoms Fransisko? Fascism? Theocracy? Communism?

    • FMN

      Britain have long list of past atrocities which yet to be accounted for, during the expansion of British Empire

      So stop acting like an angle

      • Wayan, PIA, Denpasar

        Britain has not only paid significant retribution they have recognized and apologized for many atrocities. I would have Indonesia do the same for past (63/65/71/73/75/83/98) acts of state violence, however we maintain a rigid denial.

        • TalkingEid

          Wayan – FMN is one of those who thinks that 2 wrongs make a right. Don’t waste your time on such moral vacuums.

        • FMN

          Can you substantiate with links, proof, etc?

          Whichever you write, they won’t be enough. I mean how you compensate for the loss of civilization, generations, lands and culture of the Australian Aborigines? Irreplaceable.

      • mauriceg

        Sorry FMN,
        I am not personally responsible for the atrocities of the British Empire, nor the Roman Empire, or any others throughout history.
        You will have to do much better than that while you are avoiding the nasty truth of what Indonesia has become. It uses the word ‘democracy’, but perhaps because you are likely not a native of a first-world country with a mature democracy, albeit not perfect, you will never understand the massive gulf that really exists between the two.
        Expats in Indonesia have that perspective. When you start writing about ‘atrocities of the British Empire’, thus evading the issue, that proves the point.
        I have no idea about ‘acting like an angle’ means. It can’t be English, although these are all separately English words. Together they are nonsense.

        • http://somewhere.com/ FMN

          It’s a typo, big deal

          Maurice = the English teacher expat. Too eager to correct punctuation and grammatical errors, except that this is not a classroom.

          Tried to evade the gist of my comment at the same time.

          I’ve never said i condone Indonesian government actions.
          Except that, people like you should comment on British past atrocities first (since you’re British apologist troll), before you even talk.. as if you have the moral high ground. Yea, you can’t show your “Holier-than-thou” colors here

        • TalkingEid

          It’s pointless mauriceg – unless you adopt the Javanese feudal mindset and say yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir, and agree that Indonesia is indeed a bacon of light in a dark world inhabited by British colonialists, you MUST be a closet Brit or an apologist for them, and you will be told your days are numbered. Ah those so civilized Javanese spreading peace goodwill and enlightenment to poor Papua, East Timor……

  • Ronen

    I do not understand what is the issue… If Indonesia is democratic country, it should give anyone to express their peaceful ideas in their own territory… Unfortunately, there is no freedom of expression in West Papua. If Indonesian nationalists do not understand their pathetic government action above, they may think on what would happen if an organization called ‘Free Scotland’ open an office in Jakarta.. Do you think UK government will react the same and summon the Indonesian ambassador??? Any one in Scotland can preach for independence from UK…. Why West Papuans can not do it?

  • http://twitter.com/cwiradana Calvin Wiradana Oei

    Of course UK will support West Papua separatists. We all know the abundant natural resources there and new government in Papua means new deal about the resources, and guess who will take over the wealth when it happens?

    You can’t deal with the way we handle things in Indonesia, leave.

    • -Lauren-

      The way ‘we’ handle things in Indonesia? Calvin you’re in deep water here. The way things are handled in Indonesia means the modern colonial possession of territory which was never yours to take, rampant human rights abuses, the persecution of ethnic and religious difference and an arrogant nationalist rhetoric that disguises all of the above. The UK has no interest in muscling in on a country that for so long has been denied ownership of itself. Plus, the establishment of an OPM office in England hardly means England is behind the independence movement. Over there it is perfectly legal for civil society organisations to construct head quarters where they engage in non-violent activities for humanitarian and human rights causes, despite the international foreign policies of the government. If you can’t deal with international human rights norms, remain in barbarity.

      • Andi Bugis

        “The way things are handled in Indonesia means the modern colonial possession of territory which was never yours to take” … what do you mean with this? The area of Indonesia is based on the former Dutch East Indies, including (West) Papua. Or are you saying that Brits should give Malvinas to Argentina because that part of the world never belong to UK.

        • Good,Bad and Ugly

          Give it a break; the possession based on Dutch East Indies claims? A colonialist, all of which never created their colonies based on true ethnic lines.

          The Papuans are Papuan, and not Indonesian.
          Face the truth – both people seriously despise each other.

        • Good,Bad and Ugly

          Give it a break; the possession based on Dutch East Indies claims? A colonialist, all of which never created their colonies based on true ethnic lines.

          The Papuans are Papuan, and not Indonesian.
          Face the truth – both people seriously despise each other.

        • Good,Bad and Ugly

          Give it a break; the possession based on Dutch East Indies claims? A colonialist, all of which never created their colonies based on true ethnic lines.

          The Papuans are Papuan, and not Indonesian.
          Face the truth – both people seriously despise each other.

        • Good,Bad and Ugly

          Give it a break; the possession based on Dutch East Indies claims? A colonialist, all of which never created their colonies based on true ethnic lines.

          The Papuans are Papuan, and not Indonesian.
          Face the truth – both people seriously despise each other.

        • Good,Bad and Ugly

          Give it a break; the possession based on Dutch East Indies claims? A colonialist, all of which never created their colonies based on true ethnic lines.

          The Papuans are Papuan, and not Indonesian.
          Face the truth – both people seriously despise each other.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • rustynails

            Tell you what Andi. Why don’t you ask the Papuan people if they feel Indonesian.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

          • Andi Bugis

            The current boundary of states in developing countries are simply based on the lines drawn by their colonial masters. If you do not understand it, open the world maps before WW2 and now. I hope you will see the similarity. BTW, how do you characterize Indonesian? Etnically malay, muslims, brown etc? Papuan is just a name given by the Dutch during Dutch East Indies or Nederlands Indie.

        • Good,Bad and Ugly

          Give it a break; the possession based on Dutch East Indies claims? A colonialist, all of which never created their colonies based on true ethnic lines.

          The Papuans are Papuan, and not Indonesian.
          Face the truth – both people seriously despise each other.

        • Good,Bad and Ugly

          Give it a break; the possession based on Dutch East Indies claims? A colonialist, all of which never created their colonies based on true ethnic lines.

          The Papuans are Papuan, and not Indonesian.
          Face the truth – both people seriously despise each other.

        • Good,Bad and Ugly

          Give it a break; the possession based on Dutch East Indies claims? A colonialist, all of which never created their colonies based on true ethnic lines.

          The Papuans are Papuan, and not Indonesian.
          Face the truth – both people seriously despise each other.

        • Orang Indonesia

          One thing that I’ve been wondering. If Indonesia is substituting Dutch to rule West Papua, won’t that make Indonesia the new colonist? Unless they agree to join? Did they?

          Just something that tick me off today as I watched television and saw the words “50 years back to ‘Motherland’”. Whose motherland?

      • Andi Bugis

        “The way things are handled in Indonesia means the modern colonial possession of territory which was never yours to take” … what do you mean with this? The area of Indonesia is based on the former Dutch East Indies, including (West) Papua. Or are you saying that Brits should give Malvinas to Argentina because that part of the world never belong to UK.

      • Andi Bugis

        “The way things are handled in Indonesia means the modern colonial possession of territory which was never yours to take” … what do you mean with this? The area of Indonesia is based on the former Dutch East Indies, including (West) Papua. Or are you saying that Brits should give Malvinas to Argentina because that part of the world never belong to UK.

      • Andi Bugis

        “The way things are handled in Indonesia means the modern colonial possession of territory which was never yours to take” … what do you mean with this? The area of Indonesia is based on the former Dutch East Indies, including (West) Papua. Or are you saying that Brits should give Malvinas to Argentina because that part of the world never belong to UK.

      • Andi Bugis

        “The way things are handled in Indonesia means the modern colonial possession of territory which was never yours to take” … what do you mean with this? The area of Indonesia is based on the former Dutch East Indies, including (West) Papua. Or are you saying that Brits should give Malvinas to Argentina because that part of the world never belong to UK.

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

        • Phantom

          These “few armed conflicts” if not resolved can make Indonesia like the barbaric British of the past, in the long run. Enough killings already. By the way, I love how you downplayed the violence against the Papuans as just a “few armed conflicts” *sarcasm*. I understand you were comparing it to the genocide in OZ, but dude, it came out wrong IMHO.

          I can’t see the West Papuans supporting themselves, but if the Indonesian government and military can’t be civil with Papua, the lesser of two evils may be separation. So, it’s entirely up to the Indonesian government to prove itself worthy to rule Papua fairly. Asking for the UK office to be closed is borderline barbaric.

        • Ken Westmoreland

          New Zealand did not have ‘Terra Nullius’ – the British signed the Treaty of Waitangi with the Maori chiefs in 1840, giving Maori people ownership of their lands and properties.

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

        Isn’t that what the British did in the first place with Australia, NZ etc. with their ridiculous idea of ‘Terra Nulius’? 80% of Indigenous Australians population vanished in the last 2 centuries and no one says anything about genocide, then few armed conflicts happened in Papua and Indonesia was seen as a barbaric nation. History is always a bit funny isn’t it…

      • devine

        Well said Lauren!

        • DD

          100%
          DD

        • DD

          100%
          DD

        • DD

          100%
          DD

        • DD

          100%
          DD

      • devine

        Well said Lauren!

      • devine

        Well said Lauren!

      • devine

        Well said Lauren!

      • devine

        Well said Lauren!

      • devine

        Well said Lauren!

      • devine

        Well said Lauren!

      • devine

        Well said Lauren!

      • devine

        Well said Lauren!

      • FMN

        Indonesia learnt ‘rampant human rights abuses, persecution, barbarity, bla bla bla’ from the British, Dutch and other European colonizers.

        And don’t get us started on the list of their past atrocities?

        You see, you have no authority on the subject and certainly not the moral high ground

        • Wayan, PIA, Denpasar

          FMN
          It historical terms the different tribes or ethnic groups or even royal houses have been summarily slaughtering each other since the earliest records. Written records as far back at 716AD Since 966AD the records particularly detail many acts of tribal warfare. Why brag about it just like the Egyptians did
          via Royal Cronicles
          The first definitive recorded evidence was the establishment of the first kingdom in Bali, Singamandawa which drew its bloodline from from the Sanjaya dynasty in Java. The kingdom was established in the area around Mount Batur. In the same period another Kingdom, Singadewala, grew up around Besakih.
          In 966AD under the powerful King Sri Kesari
          Warmadewa, founder of the Warmadewa Dynasty that would rule for 350 years, they conquered the Singamandawa to form a single kingdom.
          Although the great Sri Kesari Warmadewa was considered to be founder of the Warmadewa dynasty, the most well known was probably the King Udayana Warmadewa. When the King was married tothe great granddaughter of the King of East Java, the lady Gunapriya Dharmapatni, the dynasty and with it Bali changed forever. Gunapriya brought with her a heritage of tantric rites, witchcraft and sorcery as practiced in
          Java. However the most significant historical event was the change in 989AD to Old Javanese as the official language used in Royal Decrees.
          They had two sons, Erlangga and Anak Wungsu. The later became King whilst Erlangga went to East Java to his grandfather’s court where Erlangga after countless battles united the whole of East Java and ruled as king between 1037 and 1049.

          King Adidewa Lancana was the last king of the Warmadewa Dynasty. He was killed in 1286 during the conquest by
          King Kertanegara from the Kingdom of Singosari in East Java. In turn 6 years later in 1292 King Kertanegara was killed by an assassin; leaving a power void in Bali that lasted for some 50 years with a number of small but historically insignificant kingdoms developing.

          I hope that demonstrates that just between Bali and East Java there was huge conflict, the same was happening all over the place we now call Indonesia – We do not need to learn violence, it is in our blood. In deed it is the willingness to kill/betray ones neighbor that allowed the Dutch to conquer us in the first instance. Repeatedly one ethnic group or Royal house would support the Dutch to overthrow its historical enemy, only some time later to suffer the same fate
          The fuedal nature of Indonesian society is one major reason why we see so much violence today, although religion is often used as the excuse, the blood runs thicker

        • TalkingEid

          funny how we didn’t learn things like – law, honesty, respect, personal freedom………

    • JohnEnglish

      good idea Calvin. We should leave, and while were at it we should take our US$ 30 billon of foreign investment with us.

    • MadWorld

      Rajiv’s clone

    • rustynails

      Well besides being nonsense that the UK supports Papua Independence for a chance at its natural resources. Even if true (sorry laughing) how could Papua be worse off than is with the current brutal, thieving colonial power.

  • Andi Bugis

    “Free Scotland” after 600 year occupation? It would have much bigger impact to UK if there is an office open to Free Malvinas. Argentina has pursued Indonesia to back her claim but Indonesia refused to do so … probably because the pressure of UK. Now Indonesia asks the same thing to UK!

  • Andi Bugis

    “Free Scotland” after 600 year occupation? It would have much bigger impact to UK if there is an office open to Free Malvinas. Argentina has pursued Indonesia to back her claim but Indonesia refused to do so … probably because the pressure of UK. Now Indonesia asks the same thing to UK!

  • Andi Bugis

    “Free Scotland” after 600 year occupation? It would have much bigger impact to UK if there is an office open to Free Malvinas. Argentina has pursued Indonesia to back her claim but Indonesia refused to do so … probably because the pressure of UK. Now Indonesia asks the same thing to UK!

  • Andi Bugis

    “Free Scotland” after 600 year occupation? It would have much bigger impact to UK if there is an office open to Free Malvinas. Argentina has pursued Indonesia to back her claim but Indonesia refused to do so … probably because the pressure of UK. Now Indonesia asks the same thing to UK!

  • Andi Bugis

    “Free Scotland” after 600 year occupation? It would have much bigger impact to UK if there is an office open to Free Malvinas. Argentina has pursued Indonesia to back her claim but Indonesia refused to do so … probably because the pressure of UK. Now Indonesia asks the same thing to UK!

  • Andi Bugis

    “Free Scotland” after 600 year occupation? It would have much bigger impact to UK if there is an office open to Free Malvinas. Argentina has pursued Indonesia to back her claim but Indonesia refused to do so … probably because the pressure of UK. Now Indonesia asks the same thing to UK!

  • andrew767

    Why does the United Nations summary http://t.co/vdfLkdM3fQ say Indonesia is the “current administrator”? Why does the summary not say that West Papua is part of Indonesia? I think it is because Indonesia is administrating West Papua on behalf of the UN, because West Papua is still a UN trust territory.

  • andrew767

    Why does the United Nations summary http://t.co/vdfLkdM3fQ say Indonesia is the “current administrator”? Why does the summary not say that West Papua is part of Indonesia? I think it is because Indonesia is administrating West Papua on behalf of the UN, because West Papua is still a UN trust territory.

  • andrew767

    Why does the United Nations summary http://t.co/vdfLkdM3fQ say Indonesia is the “current administrator”? Why does the summary not say that West Papua is part of Indonesia? I think it is because Indonesia is administrating West Papua on behalf of the UN, because West Papua is still a UN trust territory.

  • andrew767

    Why does the United Nations summary http://t.co/vdfLkdM3fQ say Indonesia is the “current administrator”? Why does the summary not say that West Papua is part of Indonesia? I think it is because Indonesia is administrating West Papua on behalf of the UN, because West Papua is still a UN trust territory.

  • andrew767

    Why does the United Nations summary http://t.co/vdfLkdM3fQ say Indonesia is the “current administrator”? Why does the summary not say that West Papua is part of Indonesia? I think it is because Indonesia is administrating West Papua on behalf of the UN, because West Papua is still a UN trust territory.

  • andrew767

    Why does the United Nations summary http://t.co/vdfLkdM3fQ say Indonesia is the “current administrator”? Why does the summary not say that West Papua is part of Indonesia? I think it is because Indonesia is administrating West Papua on behalf of the UN, because West Papua is still a UN trust territory.

  • andrew767

    Why does the United Nations summary http://t.co/vdfLkdM3fQ say Indonesia is the “current administrator”? Why does the summary not say that West Papua is part of Indonesia? I think it is because Indonesia is administrating West Papua on behalf of the UN, because West Papua is still a UN trust territory.

  • TalkingEid

    I doubt it will ever be as big a begging bowl as Indonesias. “By its own estimates, Indonesia has provided approximately US$42 million of foreign assistance over the past ten years.” – source – http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2012/07/25/Indonesia-emerging-aid-donor.aspx

    Foreign aid given by sunset dirts country UK in 2009 – $11.50 billion.
    Keep polishing your bowl 22.

  • TalkingEid

    I doubt it will ever be as big a begging bowl as Indonesias. “By its own estimates, Indonesia has provided approximately US$42 million of foreign assistance over the past ten years.” – source – http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2012/07/25/Indonesia-emerging-aid-donor.aspx

    Foreign aid given by sunset dirts country UK in 2009 – $11.50 billion.
    Keep polishing your bowl 22.

  • TalkingEid

    I doubt it will ever be as big a begging bowl as Indonesias. “By its own estimates, Indonesia has provided approximately US$42 million of foreign assistance over the past ten years.” – source – http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2012/07/25/Indonesia-emerging-aid-donor.aspx

    Foreign aid given by sunset dirts country UK in 2009 – $11.50 billion.
    Keep polishing your bowl 22.

  • TalkingEid

    I doubt it will ever be as big a begging bowl as Indonesias. “By its own estimates, Indonesia has provided approximately US$42 million of foreign assistance over the past ten years.” – source – http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2012/07/25/Indonesia-emerging-aid-donor.aspx

    Foreign aid given by sunset dirts country UK in 2009 – $11.50 billion.
    Keep polishing your bowl 22.

  • TalkingEid

    I doubt it will ever be as big a begging bowl as Indonesias. “By its own estimates, Indonesia has provided approximately US$42 million of foreign assistance over the past ten years.” – source – http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2012/07/25/Indonesia-emerging-aid-donor.aspx

    Foreign aid given by sunset dirts country UK in 2009 – $11.50 billion.
    Keep polishing your bowl 22.

    • 22roles

      Ponder that aids, but lion air comes to mind, I wonder how much they signed for airbus deal.? Is UK still part of the share holders of airbus or already got trashed n kicked out? Can’t say Garuda’s contracts as well for airbus…funny huh after all about that begging bowls, get that bowl in bright color so Indonesia don’t mss the spot where to throw those pennies. ..

    • 22roles

      Ponder that aids, but lion air comes to mind, I wonder how much they signed for airbus deal.? Is UK still part of the share holders of airbus or already got trashed n kicked out? Can’t say Garuda’s contracts as well for airbus…funny huh after all about that begging bowls, get that bowl in bright color so Indonesia don’t mss the spot where to throw those pennies. ..

    • 22roles

      Ponder that aids, but lion air comes to mind, I wonder how much they signed for airbus deal.? Is UK still part of the share holders of airbus or already got trashed n kicked out? Can’t say Garuda’s contracts as well for airbus…funny huh after all about that begging bowls, get that bowl in bright color so Indonesia don’t mss the spot where to throw those pennies. ..

    • 22roles

      Ponder that aids, but lion air comes to mind, I wonder how much they signed for airbus deal.? Is UK still part of the share holders of airbus or already got trashed n kicked out? Can’t say Garuda’s contracts as well for airbus…funny huh after all about that begging bowls, get that bowl in bright color so Indonesia don’t mss the spot where to throw those pennies. ..

      • TalkingEid

        Considering the amount of aid given to Indonesia by the UK 22, I am sure you can afford a giant begging bowl, which you can carry round in your British made Range Rover, while you try to work out the difference between direct and indirect taxes.

      • TalkingEid

        Considering the amount of aid given to Indonesia by the UK 22, I am sure you can afford a giant begging bowl, which you can carry round in your British made Range Rover, while you try to work out the difference between direct and indirect taxes.

      • TalkingEid

        Considering the amount of aid given to Indonesia by the UK 22, I am sure you can afford a giant begging bowl, which you can carry round in your British made Range Rover, while you try to work out the difference between direct and indirect taxes.

        • 22roles

          Seems you have no idea what it means when I said range rover he left London decade ago, you are years too late…again, I am sure you can show me (edited) what it is direct and indirect taxes after all using your logic that range rover is still owned by UK…lol..

          • TalkingEid

            Bingo 22 – as usual I don’t think anyone knows what you are talking about.

      • TalkingEid

        Considering the amount of aid given to Indonesia by the UK 22, I am sure you can afford a giant begging bowl, which you can carry round in your British made Range Rover, while you try to work out the difference between direct and indirect taxes.

      • 22rotes

        yup they made a big splash with that

        On the positive at least they are buying decent technology even if the pilots are civil servants, drug runners or would be divers

      • 22rotes

        yup they made a big splash with that

        On the positive at least they are buying decent technology even if the pilots are civil servants, drug runners or would be divers

      • 22rotes

        yup they made a big splash with that

        On the positive at least they are buying decent technology even if the pilots are civil servants, drug runners or would be divers

      • 22rotes

        yup they made a big splash with that

        On the positive at least they are buying decent technology even if the pilots are civil servants, drug runners or would be divers

  • TalkingEid

    I doubt it will ever be as big a begging bowl as Indonesias. “By its own estimates, Indonesia has provided approximately US$42 million of foreign assistance over the past ten years.” – source – http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2012/07/25/Indonesia-emerging-aid-donor.aspx

    Foreign aid given by sunset dirts country UK in 2009 – $11.50 billion.
    Keep polishing your bowl 22.

  • TalkingEid

    I doubt it will ever be as big a begging bowl as Indonesias. “By its own estimates, Indonesia has provided approximately US$42 million of foreign assistance over the past ten years.” – source – http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2012/07/25/Indonesia-emerging-aid-donor.aspx

    Foreign aid given by sunset dirts country UK in 2009 – $11.50 billion.
    Keep polishing your bowl 22.

  • TalkingEid

    I doubt it will ever be as big a begging bowl as Indonesias. “By its own estimates, Indonesia has provided approximately US$42 million of foreign assistance over the past ten years.” – source – http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post/2012/07/25/Indonesia-emerging-aid-donor.aspx

    Foreign aid given by sunset dirts country UK in 2009 – $11.50 billion.
    Keep polishing your bowl 22.

  • trolls22

    they would need to borrow one from you – perhaps you can export yours – maybe outsource it to Myanmar

  • trolls22

    they would need to borrow one from you – perhaps you can export yours – maybe outsource it to Myanmar

  • trolls22

    they would need to borrow one from you – perhaps you can export yours – maybe outsource it to Myanmar

  • trolls22

    they would need to borrow one from you – perhaps you can export yours – maybe outsource it to Myanmar

  • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

    Mm. Pretty much. I wouldn’t say they are poor primitives though like you did, but as far I concern, it is still a long way path for them to be fully independent. You don’t expect countries like Australia leave their native-indigenous people like that in the middle of nowhere in Northern Territory, just in the name of freedom (as you can see yourself, they are not quite capable as Ireland in term of the idea of self-governance). West Papua interior’s population demographically is made up predominantly by indigenous tribes, spoke languages that we don’t recognize, live in mountainous terrains and jungle and stuff. Some of them are uncontacted people. Yes I’m sure this Benny Wenda guy have talked to every single one of them and all people of Papua have mutually agreed on independence, or is this independence thing only going to serve for the benefit of certain groups of people? We don’t know but one can always guess.

    Anyway, if you really mean these Papuan people are poor-primitives people, it is a disgrace if you are to compare them to those founding fathers of Indonesia who fought in 1940s. It’s a different context, and your extensive use of comparison between colonial Indonesia and native-indigenous Papuans is invalid in many levels.

    • TalkingEid

      The primitives I was referring to – are the (mainly) Javanese imperialists – good to see you you took my point.

      • Fransisko Lojaya

        I still don’t see them as primitives

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=657273980 Reville Saw

    Free West Papua

  • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

    I’m just saying because you were asking for substantial evidence and stuff, but yeah I’m sorry we waren’t supposed to be arguing about who had done worse than who but trying to figure out solution instead.

    • Phantorm

      Telling me about Lost Generation & White Australian policy doesn’t count as “substantial evidence.” Substantial evidence that the British of the past was diabolically evil? Totally agree, bro. Substantial evidence that Indonesia is better? Please, I’m ROFL-ing uncontrollably. The point is, why are those crimes, as YOU said, “a lot worse” than the Indonesian’s mistreatment of minorities. Every country has a dark past, but what’s the measuring stick by which you judge this one has a darker past than that one? I can also ask a dumb question: who’d you rather be stuck on an Island with: Hitler or Stalin? So thank you for being a man enough to acknowledge this isn’t about who had done worse.

      • http://somewhere.com/ FMN

        At least be a gentlemen and own up to your past transgressions, before moving on, OK?

  • Valkyrie1604

    I have my doubts that this was a purchase. It can not be seen as aid, can it? I am seeing too much publicity on it.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

    I understand it’s going to be a long journey and that’s why they say patience is a virtue. Like you said, even the developed countries in this world took a very long time to be prosperous like they are today. In my previous response, I was trying to exactly pinpoint the crux of your arguments: which is it? That Indonesia had not had enough time or because democracy is not the right system? Because you pretty much said both, and in a way you contradicted yourself, because, as I said in the very first part of my previous response to you: if Indonesia has not had enough time, then perhaps if we wait and see, democracy may work. Who knows?

    And then, you went on talk about China’s superpower status, which I argued, was irrelevant to the point I made. I started talking about the “happy & free” countries not to unrealistically say, “Indonesia must be like them, NOW,” but to make a point that you don’t need to be a superpower country to be prosperous. I hope I’m clear, because I suspect by the way you replied to me last, it sounds like you misunderstood me.

    “And, in the mean time if we are going to keep arguing about human rights and freedom and stuff in Papua it will be a never ending conflict.” No, it won’t be solved by arguing, but by action. So, the Indonesian central gov’t needs to start treating the West Papuans like actual human beings. Until Indonesia changes how it treats the Papuans, it’s just giving them more and more reason to go crazy with the separatist movement. Looks like the W Papuans are losing their patience more and more. It’s not so much me or you that the central gov’t has to convince, but the people of W Papua.

    Andi Bugis said if the people have all their needs satisfied by the state, they don’t need democracy. You, Fransisko, pretty much concurred w/ him. I don’t see the central gov’t doing a good enough job even with the parts of Indonesia that have no separatist movements LOL. Ask the Papuans if they have their needs met by the central gov’t on the same level as the Singaporeans/Bruneians. More time to be a fully developed country, sure. Stop the human right violations, can’t wait too much longer.

    • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

      Mm fanboying? I am using China as comparison to Indonesia as in my opinion China is closer resembling Indonesia than your Scandinavian states. Can you imagine China with your very idealistic idea of democracy back in 1950s? They would be not much different to us now you know? Again which one do you prefer, a superpower without proper human right recognitions or a ‘democracy’ state such as Indonesia? I understand for a person like you who idealize human rights to the fullest, China will not always on top of your list but seriously we can’t deny they have achieved so much in past years that they would not be able to if they are going straight to your idea of democracy. You can call it fanboying if you really couldn’t find any other words to describe it I really wouldn’t mind, but this is my personal subjective opinion, I don’t get it which part of my statement regarding China is irrelevant. If you are trying to put a proper comparison of Sweden to Indonesia then do it with the 18th century Sweden instead. Your idea of democracy that fully guarantees freedom is a damn good thing, but in order to get there some group of people will have to to suffer inevitably (it always happens, you can even find it in Scandinavian history books) And yes, the human rights abuses need to stop, but it will not be going to stop in a short period of time, or anytime soon. I wasn’t denying any of this human right abuse claims in Papua or anywhere else but in the same time there’s not much we can do about it. As to properly answer your previous question, I believe democracy will be the right path for Indonesia, not now tho, we are in the middle of it, so yeah I believe Indonesia hasn’t got enough time to catch up really. That is basically my whole argument regarding this issue. Btw there’s no such thing as Indonesia’s system, it is merely a very basic democracy system that is ran by group of immature people who have a very low knowledge of the idea of democracy itself, and this often happens in a lot of places not just exclusively Indonesia ^_^

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100003507967305 Neal Lindberg

        I used “fanboying” as an expression and I even tried to use quotation marks to get that across. Who would’ve thought you took it so seriously.

        “I don’t get it which part of my statement regarding China is irrelevant.” The part where you mentioned its superpower status. And to answer, “Again which one do you prefer, a superpower without proper human right recognitions or a ‘democracy’ state such as Indonesia?” That’s like asking me, “Burned alive or gas chamber?” But to be serious, I’d go with Indonesia’s version of “democracy.” Because if you bring up the word “preference,” I told you more than once in this string of conversation that I didn’t prioritize superpower status that much. Can’t “tempt” me with things I don’t want, Lojaya. There are certain things that the Indonesian democracy does better than China’s control freak communist party. Take freedom of religion. Yes, some radical Indonesian Muslims really oppress the religious minorities. Still, I appreciate, for instance, the Indonesian gov’t allowing Roman Catholic Church in the country to be managed by the Vatican, while in China their gov’t is trying to act like the Vatican–I’m saying this as a non-Catholic. Regardless of how one might personally feel about religion, I wince whenever the government pokes its nose where it doesn’t belong.
        You see, this is why I agree more w/ Bugis’ example of Singapore (where their gov’t pretty much respects the Singaporeans’ religious freedom) compared to China.

        “We can’t deny they have achieved so much in past years that they would not be able to if they are going straight to your idea of democracy.” Maybe, maybe not, who knows? China is an exception to the rules, not the other way around. Like I said, can’t blame people for going with what’s been shown to work in MOST cases. Umm, I mentioned I had tremendous respect for China’s strengths, but I wouldn’t turn a blind eye to their poor human rights records. Superpower status and brilliant achievements don’t make up for the major issues that they still have. I used that CEO analogy to convey to you that I view China like a successful, but overall despicable human being. I have more respect for countries that are prosperous and take good care of its people, though not a superpower nation. It doesn’t take away from the fact that China are fantastic at the things they’re good at, but the gov’t doesn’t have my full respect. I have more respect for the Scandinavian countries who though aren’t superpower nations, take very good care of its people.

        “If you are trying to put a proper comparison of Sweden to Indonesia then do it with the 18th century Sweden instead.” I’m not trying to compare Sweden to Indonesia in the way you think I’m using it. It all goes back to, again, you out of the blue mentioning China’s superpower status. Andi Bugis talked about how a country didn’t need to be a democracy as long as the people’s needs were met. He mentioned Brunei & S’pore as examples. I said to him, fair enough as long as the Indonesian gov’t cleaned up its acts. Then the 2nd time you joined the conversation, you mentioned China’s superpower status. That’s the part that I personally don’t find relevant. So I went on to cite stats about how wonderfully the non-superpower Scandinavian countries are doing, to prove 1)Being a superpower is not a prerequisite to have the needs of the people met–China is a case in point, and 2) Why it makes sense that people push for democracy (not that it has a 100% success rate, but because it tends to do better than other systems). THAT’S IT. Let me rephrase myself so you don’t misconstrue the purpose behind the Sweden example: I’m trying to primarily address your superpower comment, not to unfairly ask the Indonesian government to catch up to the western democracies overnight and to make a case for why most people prefer democracy. I fully understand that the road to prosperity is a hard and long process. So why don’t we give the Scandinavian history books for the Indonesian officials instead, rather than to me? You know, so the Indonesian gov’t can learn to avoid the mistakes the Scandinavians made in order to be a mature democracy?

        It’s a complete no-brainer that democracy requires costly sacrifices. We can ask the family that Munir left behind. Soeharto also had a lot of his opponents jailed, tortured, and murdered. In fact I had an Indonesian nanny whose husband was dragged violently one morning and never to be seen again because he was a Soeharto dissenter, leaving my former nanny a struggling single mom.

        “I wasn’t denying any of this human right abuse claims in Papua or anywhere else but in the same time there’s not much we can do about it.” Your point is well taken, but tell this to the Papuan separatists. Good luck. The Papuans are the people that need the most convincing, not so much me or you. Ask them how much longer they’re willing to wait. While the separatists sentiments won’t necessarily die even if Indonesia exercises its role perfectly in Papua, Indonesia is definitely not helping itself right now.

        “and this often happens in a lot of places not just exclusively Indonesia ^_^” And I never said this only happens just exclusively in Indonesia, but this is the country in the hot seat, since this article talks about Indonesia & Papua. ^_^

  • otis

    West Papua will forever remain free and we fully support.

    Intenasonal world countries that they are familiar with democracy and human rights, you do not understand about the Indonesia Human Rights … understood you.

  • FMN

    Australian, British, Ducth, etc -> Definitely LOT worse

    You just using Amnesty, etc to cover your past atrocities

  • Andi Bugis

    “Right now, it’s Indonesia that makes the separation option more tempting for the Papuans”

    Just another free history lessor: OPM is formed long before the area was included in Indonesia. Papuans declared themself independent from The Netherlands on 1 Dec 1962 which of course the Dutch did not recognize. So, from the beginning, they want to be independent regardless what Jakarta do with them. The story of Papuans looks similar to the struggling of Aceh. Aceh was an independent sultanate before forcely incorporated by Dutch just before World War 2. Remarkably, Aceh can be solved peacefully with a wide range of autonomy (no referendum) and still becomes an integral part of Indonesia. Why West Papua not? I live currently in Europe. If you use nowadays christian versus islam argument, you will be ‘heard’ by politicians. They will support you!

    • Phantom

      Call me obtuse or dumb, but your free history lesson still doesn’t change my sympathy towards OPM, dude. The European colonials, the Dutch, the British, etc kind of ruined the indigenous ppl they conquered worldwide. Flying monkeys w/ 1/4 of their brains intact knows this fact.

      “Remarkably, Aceh can be solved peacefully with a wide range of autonomy (no referendum) and still becomes an integral part of Indonesia. Why West Papua not?” If that’s the best win-win solution, then so be it, but do the ppl of W Papua consider it a good enough solution? It’s not me or you that Jakarta has to prove itself to, but to the ppl of West Papua. In Canada, I won’t be affected personally, and same w/ u in Europe. Unfortunately, it’s still an understatement to say that Indonesia doesn’t exercise its role well in Papua…that’s certainly not helping the Indonesian government’s cause, (yes,even if the ppl of Papua still want independence regardless). I’m not exactly sure how long they’re willing to wait for Jakarta to get its act together.

    • TalkingEid

      “Remarkably, Aceh can be solved peacefully” ……..words fail me – do you know nothing about Indonesia Andi? Yet you want to give us history lessons.

  • FMN

    Don’t get me wrong, I despise violence, unfairness, etc regardless of skin colors. I just loathe which mouth it comes from. I don’t mind Tibetan preaching peace & fairness though

    • Wayan, PIA,

      FMN
      I am 72 and a tutor of Balinese History, I learn, remember and teach because I feel not recognizing our mistakes will ensure we make them again.
      My great grandfather died in 1908 near the site in Denpasar known as Puputan Square. He was killed by the Dutch in an act that was to be the start of the end of European colonialism, perhaps you are not aware of the event and the fallout in Europe that aided nations like Indonesia to take back ownership. Unfortunately here as in some other places we now see our own steal it from the populous. Orwell’s Animal Farm could have been written about the country with only minor changes

      But because of that should we suggest the Dutch journalist who exposed corrupt practices has no right to do so? I believe you will answer, no he has the right to expose corruption, you might even, like me, wish it would have been an Indonesian journalist that did it, the last of course (piggy banks) resulted in attempts to kill Tempo journalists

      In the same tone, therefore it is wrong to suggest TalkingEid and others should stay silent or leave because of the wrongs of their forefathers and if they disagree with Indonesian policy. I disagree with a great deal of policy, should I leave?

      Your phrase ‘I just loathe which mouth it comes from’ may well reflect your own opinions, and you are free to hold them, but your loathing does not change the truth, the facts, that actuality we, as Indonesians are guilty, in several parts of Indonesia of the very things we blame the Dutch and in your case the British for, and we are clinging on to them via routine violence and worse, as testified by the taking of Papuan Children to Jakarta and forcing them into Islamic boarding schools
      It is not for me to calm your mind, but I would suggest dealing with the today is far more beneficial than blaming the yesterdays

      As I pointed out above, we have a long heritage of violence, as many other nations do, but unlike them we are failing to accept and then change our behaviors

      • FMN

        Seems you have good heart and intentions.
        Carry on then

        • Wayan. PIA, Denpasar

          I will, and would have done so without your blessing kind sir, but since you feel you can give me permission I gratefully accept. Is this the point I kiss your feet or touch my cap??

          For completion, you never actually answered my question or acknowledged/argued the point

          • http://somewhere.com/ FMN

            You also have not substantiated with links, proof, etc?

            I’m not interested in arguing, just making my points.

        • Wayan. PIA, Denpasar

          My heart is not pure FMN, no more than the next man’s and I do not feel sufficiently righteous to shout any other mans point of view down or dismiss it because of what his grandfather might have done

      • Comello

        Not to detract from your historical knowledge of Bali, but your grandfather could not have been killed in the Puputans of 1908 as they (Badung and Pemecutan) happened in September 1906. Maybe he was killed at the smaller Puputan at Klungkung?

    • TalkingEid

      so FMN – it’s ok for you to spout about atrocities committed by Britain – but not for anyone else to mention those committed by Indonesia. Shall we add ‘hypocrisy’ to the things learned from colonial forerunners? Or is it just a cultural trait native to us?

      • http://somewhere.com/ FMN

        Talk all you want, no one is stopping you.
        I can listen to people preaching fairness etc, but NOT from British, Dutch, past colonizers and their apologists

        • TalkingEid

          So because I criticize Indonesia I must be British, Dutch…..? Never ASSUME FMN – when you ASSUME it makes an ASS of U not ME.

          • http://somewhere.com/ FMN

            Clearly you’re their APOLOGIST then.

            I can understand you’re rooting for Papuan, but rooting for past colonizers?

            Colonizer-apologists, your days are numbered in Nusantara. You’ve been warned.

            I’ll refrain from mentioning of anyone’s A** if i were u

          • TalkingEid

            Oh dear oh dear Andi – now you call me an ‘apologist’ – please point out where I have defended the evil actions of colonialists – I abhor them all, whether they be Dutch, British (though I fail to see why you are venting your spleen at the British in an article about Papua) Belgian, German, Spanish, Poruguese or Javanese. Seems that anyone who disagrees with your particular mindset has to be vilified. Did you learn that from colonial powers? Or is it just a native cultural tendency?

          • TalkingEid

            “Colonizer-apologists, your days are numbered in Nusantara. You’ve been warned.” really? so you would deny freedom of speech to those who disagree with you? And threaten them? What a wonderful representative you are of Indonesian culture.

        • Wayan, PIA, Denpasar

          so, given that almost the entire world (including Indonesia) as at some time invaded/attacked/oppressed/colonized others without justification, you may call it whatever what you will, just who CAN you listen to?

    • Phantom

      If Hitler were your great grandpa, I guess I could assume you wish all Jews should be incinerated, eh? And had it been Stalin, I’m sure you run a labor camp somewhere.

  • FMN

    Violence is last resort, If we can avoid violence altogether then that’s ideal.

    • Wayan, PIA. Denpasar

      Ideal. But not likely given the record of military and police abuses and the rising tide of violent retaliation.

  • Andi Bugis

    If you understand the history of Indonesia well, you would find that Indonesia had tried to use (western or better to say Dutch) democratic systems just after gaining its merdeka. For 10 years (1945-1955) they used a democratic system with two chambers. They just copied one by one the system of Dutch. The results were chaos and cabinets lasted only for 1 year maximum. For such short cabinet period, no concrete plans were done to lift the ecomony. Soekarno (mis)used this trial of western democracy to introduce his ‘guided democracy’. So, Indonesians have had experience with the so-called Western Democracy. In my opinion, this (western) democracy can only be played well if people have reached some level of maturity in economy and political sense. To be blunt, you cannot talk about democracy if your stomach is empty. There should be some boundary conditions created before implementing democracy. What Indonesia needs is rule of law, which can be reached either by democracy, meritocracy (Singapore, China, South Korea in 80′s) or monocracy (Brunei). Some people/family in Indonesia live above the law.

    • Ken Westmoreland

      Correction: Indonesia abolished the Senate at the same time as it abolished the federal system, which the Dutch imposed as a last-ditch attempt to hold on to Indonesia. Thank you for distinguishing between ‘monarchy’ and ‘monocracy’ – Brunei is both.

    • Neal Lindberg

      “In my opinion, this (western) democracy can only be played well if people have reached some level of maturity in economy and political sense.”

      It’s crystal clear that Indonesia hasn’t reached that level of maturity yet. That the country needs more time is obvious. In spite of the “success stories” of S’pore, China, Brunei, & S Korea, I am scared of trusting this current gov’t with meritocracy or monocracy. Given how the corrupt officials behave….I’m personally inclined to stick with democracy.

      • TalkingEid

        Indeed Neal – when democracies start to fail, the reason is generally that they need MORE democracy (Including independent and honest judiciary, equality before the law and protection of the weaker members) rather than less.

  • DrDez

    Orang

    The 1969 vote was a joke. Surharto handpicked a group of Papuans to represent the Papuan people under the excuse of ‘they are wild uneducated natives and do not understand democratic voting’ The vote was nothing more than a scam and passed 95%

    Since 1963 we have been a colonial power over them, and Aceh and Bali to a lesser extent and Ambon and for a time East Timor

    It is worth noting that Kalla repeated almost the same words about 6 weeks ago when 500 elections were cancelled in Sulawesi following PKS/Golkar violence

  • Wong Edan

    Thanks to the stupid new comment system it is no longer possible to find latest comments, but Dr Dez, I’m sure I agree with whatever you said…

  • semak pagar

    i think wenda is free to give his opinion while he was in papau but the problem he did is he murdered police and get backed up from other country promoting colonialization in the past is that right?

    • rustynails

      Ah Pajar, you have to go a long way to find a more brutal and oppressive colonial power than Java

  • James

    If Papua fell, it will be the next puppet for China because of its natural resources. Any western leaders in their right minds will prefer Papua to be part of Indonesia and keep pressing Indonesia leaders for human rights reform there.

  • TalkingEid

    James – that was exactly the same argument used by the USA in support of the Vietnam war; it’s called the domino theory – and guess what? It’s absolute ********.

    • rustynails

      It was also essentially the same nonsense Indonesia used to justify to invade East Timor. Oooh the big bad communists! Of course, it was bad for the East Timorese, very very bad.

  • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

    All I am saying is democracy doesn’t guarantee freedoms, I didn’t say anything about which one is better or worse, I personally think you know the answer better than me.

    However Communist Manifesto is still one of my favorite book tho ^_^

  • http://www.facebook.com/idropdeadgorgeous Fransisko Lojaya

    But still you gotta be joking if you expect Indonesia to act like those Western countries at this point of time. This is the part where most people don’t get it.

  • rustynails

    Laugh, “Been Warned?” How sad and pathetic is this. Anyway I never apologised for Indonesia’s brutal occupation of East Timor and Papua so not not sure what brought the tantrum on

  • James

    A friend of mine work for freeport, he told me this story. A few years ago, as part of its CSR program, freeport built several hundred housings to be distributed for free to local papua tribemen, in hope that it will improve their living standards. Several months later the houses were all sold by their owners, mostly to “perantau” from other parts of Indonesia. The resulting money were spent on alcohol, gambling, etc.
    Another friend of mine, went to papua to visit cartenz pyramid. He’s a professional climber. He returned with a very negative perception about papua. There is a custom in papua, if you damage their properties (cattle, pigs) or cause minor personal injury in an accident they will extort you for hundreds of millions Rp, or else they will hurt you very bad.
    You don’t let your door wide open during daytime in papua, or else people from the street would enter your house and take your food, belongings, etc.
    Local tribe chieftain tried to extort huge amount of money to “guarantee” their safety because a tribal war is raging.
    (A group of TNI patrol did the same, asking for 20million Rp, to escort them through OPM infested jungles near puncak jaya.)
    Perhaps its lack of education, or its in their character, but maybe there’s a reason why papua is least developed in spite of money poured by the government.

    • Wayan, PIA

      James
      You might want to enter the world of poor Indonesians because that could apply to 90% of the nation

    • Andya

      I can confirm that your friend’s experience may have been true. 13 years ago, I lived in Papua. As a non-native Papuan, I didn’t feel any different treatment as a citizen of Indonesia, we all have the same right, completely equal before the law. We go to the same school and learn the same thing. But the difference is, most of native students were academically under the non-native. Of course I’m not talking about intelligence, its about attitude. Most of them were a bit aggresive, active to bully others, lazy at school, and so reckless. I found out that they copied their parents behaviour, in which drinking alcohol, gambling, and extorting are their daily activities. That was what these pure kids learned from the family.

      I never think that Indonesia ignores Papua, it has given everything to develop Papua. But the situation is different on site. They wan’t to controll the money by themselves so they can corrupt it without being worried about being jailed. When the govt tries to approach them through corruption law, they’ll intimidate back by provoking separatism.

      Moreover, I remember what Theys Hiyo Eluay said in the national radio about why Papua shoud be free. It was because Papuan race is melanesia, and Indonesia is melayu. Don’t you find it ridiculous..?

      • TalkingEid

        Sounds like they learned a lot from the feudal Javanese Andya.
        Your post simply reeks of a patronising, colonial mindset – “we must rule those poor Papuans because they are lesser, inferior people to us, and cannot rule themselves” – I am sure the Dutch said exactly the same thing about the inhabitants of their colonies too

    • rustynails

      “Perhaps its lack of education, or its in their character, but maybe there’s a reason why papua is least developed in spite of money poured by the government”

      Ok that is just funny, surely you meant the amount of money stolen from Papua and flitted into Java?

  • James2

    If you think self government would improve quality of life for papuan, just compare living condition in jayapura, sorong, merauke, etc. , and the neighbouring papua new guinea. Much much better in the indonesian territory.

    • Wayan, PIA

      An excuse used by Hitler when he annexed Poland. I have also heard a lot of Indonesians here in Bali and wider say that life here was better under Suharto and Sukarno, people obviously look with funny glasses don’t you think? and quite a few black South Africans long for days gone by. Only last week an Iranian was on Al Jaz craving pre 1979 etc
      The issue is not about being better off in the short term, it is about long term and lasting political freedom and ownership to decide what to do with your lives and resources.
      The thing about freedom is it’s not always nice, and its not always the right result but that is the price for self determination which is, outside of Islam and despotic rulers really a basic human and national right. This BTW is what the President is trying to say in his ill educated way when he talks today about intolerance. He is correct but his failure however is not to punish those guilty of Islamic violence, the logic that conflict will arise in a democracy is correct, however it relies of fair and equal institutions not biased and corrupt otherwise it remains a junta.
      The people in Jakarta have no right to oppress and exploit the Papuans no more than they did Timor Leste, and do Bali, Aceh and other individual nations within the state. However for Papua it goes further, even the justification ‘it was part of the Dutch East Indie’s ergo its mine’ is feeble if you actually use your brain and think about it
      Wayan

    • Wong Edan

      There were also people in the 1940s who said Indonesia was better under the Dutch – referring to the colonial period as the “time of peace” (“Zaman damai”). Should the rest of the country have listened?

      • http://somewhere.com/ FMN

        It would be much easier and cheaper if its just u who listened

    • rustynails

      Sorry James…Wrong

      • DodolEdan

        Sorry, rusty. JAMES IS RIGHT.

  • MadWorld

    You are almost right,TE. Muslim usually do not want progress, progress mean secularism, secularism means leaving the Quran in the dust.

  • Phantom

    I’m not even white, you presumptuous genius.

    • http://somewhere.com/ FMN

      There’s no way we can be certain ‘ur not even white’ either

    • TalkingEid

      Don’t worry Phantom – FMN simply ASSumes that anyone who disagrees with him or her is a Brit or some other European colonialist (quite how we can be so is a bit beyond me – even at my advanced age I am not a contemporary of Rhodes or Raffles).

  • Phantom

    As articulate & intelligent as Fransisko Lojaya is, he’s still a brat. As of Dec 2012, he was a high school student in Australia. His immaturity is showing, TalkingEid.

  • FMN

    Phantom, do not ever put words to my mouth.
    Just stick to my comment above, literally. Nothing more

    • Phantom

      I’m not putting words in your mouth. I’m just:

      1) Presenting a hypothetical situation. I know you’re unlikely to be a Hitler or Stalin fanboy

      2) Use your own logic against you in this hypothetical situation. Really, if your predecessor was evil, but you’re not, do you like to be defined by their sins the way you’re defining some commentators here, alleged (by you) to be Brits or Dutch?

      O well, I might have just committed an exercise in futility, judging by your antics in this comment section.

      Oh, and I have my own mind, sunshine. I can focus on whatever I want to focus on.

  • Wayan, PIA

    I think its much easier if you listened too, but you have made your stance clear which is basically ‘Indonesia should do as it wants without any care for its non Javanese population and should reject any criticism’
    Instead of nation building the nation is disintegrating in a mix of greed, ethnic and religious violence

    • FMN

      I listened alright, though its up to me whether I’ll agree.
      Your hatred and singling out certain ethnic has clouded your judgement. I’m sure your good heart & intentions can fix the rest

      • Wayan, PIA

        FMN I have no hatred just despair to see Java-centric greed destroying the nation
        My father didn’t die for this FMN I know that

  • TalkingEid

    It’s certainly neither just you or dumb Phantom. The apologists for Indonesia’s continuing exploitation and colonisation of Papua (and previously East Timor) seem to have only one argument – two wrongs make a right. “Other countries were colonists in the past, so it’s ok for Indonesia to do it now”. Sheesh.

  • FMN

    Very well, here it is

    TalkingEid wrote “…bla bla bla, not the ‘sins’ of some long-gone colonial power”

    • TalkingEid

      how is that an apology FMN? They sinned, end of story. Only you seem to make apologies – for the brutal regime we impose on Papua. I abhor ALL colonists and all their sins, whoever they were committed by and against, be they Asian, African or European. Sadly you seem to think our sins against Papuans count for nothing, because others in the past were just as bad. 2 wrongs don’t make a right – except it seems in your own curious mindset. Try harder to find a reason to tell me ‘my days are numbered’ – that one won’t wash.

  • TalkingEid

    There’s no way to certain you’re a Javanese imperialist FMN – but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s probably a duck.

  • Etovian

    The correspondent who continues to refer to the Falkland Islanders desire to remain under the Union Flag,in the same breath as the plight of the Papuans is missing the vital point that the citizens of the F I were recently accorded a free vote,in which they expressed their desires in no uncertain terms;an unlikely similar future occurrence in Papua !

  • Rule Britannia

    England, unlike Indonesia, does not suppress the rights of people protest legitimately